My husband and I reminisce about the days we used to eat out. That was prior to having babies. For many people with young ones, enjoying a fine restaurant meal isn’t an option because they can’t afford the restaurant prices AND a babysitter, or worse, they don’t know anyone trust-worthy enough to babysit at all.
I spotted this article by Zach Brooks (proprietor of Midtown Lunch), which apparently collected a firestorm of comments. I felt that the topic was worth discussing further. Below is an excerpt from it. (He resides in NYC, but his idea can be applied anywhere.)
Fancy Restaurants Should Implement an Early ‘Baby Seating’
Isn’t it hilarious how your friends come up with a million business ideas involving babies as soon as they become parents? Well, I had my first kid three and a half months ago, and, as much as I would have liked to resist becoming a new parent cliche, I have an amazing idea to benefit, well, me and any other parents of small children.
Don’t stop reading yet, it doesn’t involve onesies with hipster slogans or starting a useless “food my kid likes” blog. It involves eating out.
See, I really miss eating out at nice restaurants with my wife. We’ll occasionally drag the baby to lunch at a semi-nice place (such as Kefi, Salumeria Rosi, or Company), but for dinner I am one of those people who feels incredibly guilty bringing my newborn into a place where he is clearly not welcome. So here’s my idea…
…to continue reading about Zach’s idea, visit this Serious Eats link.
Now tell me where you stand; in the “this is the best idea ever” camp? Or the “I would avoid that restaurant like the plague” camp? Maybe somewhre in between? Don’t be shy!
{ 37 comments… read them below or add one }
It’s unfair to require the childless diners to handicap ourselves in this debate. Parents seem to lose their perspective when their children (who are always the innocent victims–it’s always “someone else’s children” at fault) are born. My husband and I are childless not by choice but by circumstance. At any rate, as I grow into my 50′s I find myself less and less tolerant of the high-pitched and squeals and screams of our citizens under the age reason.
If a child is too young to grasp the concept of “inside voice”, table manners and cannot make basic choices from a menu, then he/she is too young to sit patiently through or enjoy a meal at a fine restaurant. It will take too long, the food will be too boring, and the atmosphere too stifling for the young. Do us all a favor and take these young ones somewhere more suitable.
Regardless of the restaurant, theatre or venue, teach your young how to behave in public and the childless or the oldsters who’ve raised their young will stop sounding bitter and angry when “precious” screams and disrupts the peace.
That’s odd, my favorite restaurant has a “You must be this tall to have red paint thrown at you” sign in the entry.
Last time I checked my favorite “upscale” restaurant did not have a sign stating, “You must be this tall to eat at this restaurant”. The patrons of the establishment expect a certain ambiance and level of decorum. Parents who bring unruly children to an upscale restaurant with the expectation that it would be acceptable for their children to throw tantrums and other items make me wonder. Would it be okay if I was to walk into Chuckee Cheese and demand that everyone remain quiet during my meal?
Holy Cow! Hot topic it is!!I didn’t read through all the posts… but I think it’s unfortunate how many people out there consider kids a nuisance, and, from my experience, how many people consider themselves and their kids entitled to act however they want in any public venue, not even to specify an “upscale” restaurant. People are just ignorant, upscale or not.
Firstly, if I am going to plunk down a chunk of money for dinner, I want to enjoy my dinner… thus, I will hire a babysitter to watch my kids so that I can enjoy my food and company I am dining with. Why in the world would I want to even go to a restaurant where I have to worry if my child accidently tips over the water glass or that dinner will take too long and they’ll be starving and bored. Kids don’t have fun at those places and I think it’s stressful to everyone. But I guess I don’t know how “upscale” is defined exactly. I really think that there are places that are just not appropriate for kids under a certain age, but what one considers “too” upscale to take kids to can be really subjective.
Having said that, I do enjoy food and just because I have children I don’t want to be confined to Denny’s to eat out. As a responsible parent I feel it’s my job to teach my kids how to behave in public and this includes eating out. Just because a restaurant is “child friendly” doesn’t mean that kids can act any way they want. I don’t expect anyone to endure my child’s tantrum and so if that occurs we remove ourselves from the environment until they can behave or we leave all together. This goes for any public venue…
And to echo what someone else said… there are plenty of times that I have had a meal disturbed by an adult. Bad manners and rude behavior doesn’t end at some magical toddler age.
This whole early dining thing… I dunno. I think it would be more for the people who don’t want to dine with kids than those of us with kids. It’s not any less stressful for me to sit down and eat early with a bunch of families in an upscale restaurant than it is any other time. In fact I get annoyed by how people parent their kids, so I might find it more stressful to be in a room full of families than being seated next to a couple who gives me a glare and judges what happens next just because I have a child.
I guess that’s one (of the many) reasons some childless couples (and individuals) have a hard time understanding. We didn’t have kids because we don’t want to compromise our nightlife or work/social lives. Most of us understand that it’s hard (and also gratifying) work for those that chose to start a family, but we don’t feel we should have to compromise just because you did. It doesn’t mean we don’t like kids, or people with kids. It just means that there are some places that kids should not be taken, like expensive and peaceful restaurants. We welcome the couples who want to get out, and who certainly deserve a break. Just leave the kids at home for that one, or wait until they are old enough to behave on their own.
Wow…um…ok…how to chime in here…. My husband and I do not have children, and we love our fine dining. We also love children. I have been out with my sister and her two children (3 and 1), and from what I experienced, I don’t know why you would want to take them out to a fine restaurant and spend A LOT of money on good food that you can’t really enjoy because you’ve just spent the last hour plus making sure your toddlers are happy and entertained, like what they have to eat, are actually eating, etc. (I believe this was commented on above as well.) Now, these two were not screeching or running around like little banshees; they were very well behaved. Regardless, it takes a lot of energy to take kids out, and fine dining is about the experience not just the food.
With that said, my husband and I have been out to upscale restaurants where there might be an infant asleep nearby or a well behaved child enjoying the meal with his/her parents. I find no problem with that at all. If the kids can behave in a restaurant, and they are not disrupting other diners, then I don’t see a problem. I think it’s up to the parents to be honest with themselves, however, to determine if that will be the case.
I generally see most people who are posting on this blog as being quite sensitive to the fact that there are quite a few restaurants where the presence of young children dining is simply inappropriate… and I’m reading that from parents and non-parents alike. Thank you to those parents who understand and are patient enough to wait until their child is “restaurant age” to take them to nicer establishments.
I didn’t know I could bring red paint with me to splatter on misbehaving kids and lazy parents! Thanks for the idea, Tara! That should be quite effective! ;)
I think the baby-hater comment was in reference to the SE readers? A lot of mean-spirited responses from the original post.
Anyway, I can’t speak for everyone, but I think there is a lot of defense on the parent side because we have perspective on BOTH fronts; we were once childless and know what that’s like, and now we have kids, and know what that is like. But couples without kids have only one perspective.
Don’t misunderstand – there is no ill will against couples without children. But the argument seems lopsided because they don’t have the experience of the compromises you make and the things you give up once children are in the picture. Like eating out. We know it’s a choice and don’t blame anyone for that, but there still isn’t understanding. And so we get defensive.
Maybe I’ve missed something here. Where are the “baby haters” in this discussion? I guess I haven’t seen any here yet. But it sure seems to be a sensitive issue with both parents and non-parents alike. I have found all of this discussion very interesting, and like to see the viewpoints from both sides. I guess I’m seeing a little more defensiveness on the side of the people with kids, if anything. And don’t worry, Tara…I never bring red paint with me when I go out to eat. ;-)
How about this, if the kid can order its own entree and pay for it, then its old enough to eat there, ‘fancy’ restaurant or not. I’ve spotted tots at La Belle Vie, a decidely upscale restaurant in Minneapolis, as well as Sapor, a fave neighborhood bistro of mine. Parent or not, who isn’t taken aback by a tot’s screaching in public? And where’s Emily Post when I need her?
What about all the nicer restaurants that supply highchairs? Seems like that’s a problem right there.
I guess it also depends on everyone’s definition of “fancy” or “nice.” I’m not in NYC, so I’m not familiar with the restaurants that Zach spoke of, but my guess is that the childless couples or baby-haters don’t want you at ANY decent restaurant. If you don’t stick to Denny’s for your family outings, just don’t leave the house, or they’ll throw red paint on you.
Whoa, Sarah. I wasn’t calling anyone names. Reminder, I don’t have kids, and I probably wouldn’t go to these restaurants that implemented this special seating. But I am sympathetic to parents, and it just sounds like everyone is angry; the written word obviously doesn’t always convey the tone in someone’s voice.
Dear Mel, I too have friends with children, children I love as much as my own family. HOWEVER, the very fact that going out to a restaraunt with them can require all of us to put out efforts of keeping them happy so that we don’t disturb others,(all are under 10 years old) while sacrificing OUR meal to do so is just silly. But wow….Angry and Bitter? makes me want to throw out a little “takes one to know one” let’s keep the name calling and personality judgements to a minimum.
“You really got me”, Mike. I’m no “Well respected man”, but I do my best “All of the day, and all of the night”. :)
Ray Davies would agree with you, Chopper. ;)
I don’t think the childless people here are “angry and bitter”, they’re probably just a little annoyed and disappointed after having spent many nights out at a nice restaurant, or at a movie, etc., only to have it disrupted by a crying or screaming child. This topic just brings out the honest emotions of people on both sides of the issue. And if adults can’t have an honest and open discussion about the topic, what hope is there for finding happy middle ground? I have fond memories from early childhood of my parents taking us out to the A&W drive-in, or to pizza places, or to other family friendly places. Those were just as fun for me (probably more so) than going to a stuffy nice restaurant where I would have had to try to “behave” around other adults, or pay the consequences for not doing it. I say let kids be kids, just know where it is appropriate for them to do it. Also, it would be disappointing to call to make a reservation to eat at a nice restaurant, only to find out it was “family time”, and to have to try to find somewhere else to make reservations. Most nicer restaurants don’t even open until they know people are likely to start showing up. Why not choose someplace that is already “family friendly” to take the little ones to? There are still plenty of decent choices there (Old Spaghetti Factory, Olive Garden, Green Mill, any Mexican restaurant, etc.).
I don’t mean to be overly harsh here, but Mel, you’re suggesting that parents are being “punished” if they don’t go to a “nice meal out” because their kids aren’t old enough (or, I guess, in some cases “disciplined” enough) to behave properly? Interesting. I would have labeled parents who were capable of doing that as having participated in “good parenting.” 40 years ago and beyond it would have been called “common sense.”
No one “deserves” a nice meal out if they are can’t do so without unduly disrupting others. The term “deserves” smacks of a sense of entitlement. (see Sarah’s earlier post)
I have kids, with the oldest being 10. We didn’t start taking them out to “nicer” restaurants until recently, out of respect for other diners, but also because it was more of a headache for us.
The babysitter comment was a little harsh. The first part of the post did pose the question “what if you can’t afford a babysitter, or don’t know anyone you trust?” I’ve been there before. That doesn’t mean I support this idea, but it is a little unnerving to hear how upset all the people without children are. Yikes.
I don’t have kids. However, I do have many friends who have kids and I see how hard it is. They deserve a nice meal out just like anyone else. Yes, they made a choice to have kids, but that doesn’t mean they should be punished! (Again, the suggestion was for a very early seating, like 5pm – aren’t many restaurants empty at that time, anyway?)
I’m really surprised at how many of the childless people who commented seem angry and bitter.
Karen, I don’t think anybody would argue that parents of small children don’t work hard. I’m sure it’s a difficult challenge to balance careers and raising children. However, that was a CHOICE you made as an adult and parent. Others shouldn’t have to pay the price for your choices by enduring infant/toddler children at a nice restaurant (or at a movie theater, or a play, or any other normally quiet environment). And I think most reasonable parents know when to leave the little ones with a sitter or family member for that kind of thing. Most people I know (and even most people with children) know where to draw the line. I by no means “hate babies” or children, quite the contrary. I just don’t think that “family time” (early or otherwise) is a good idea for fine dining. There are plenty of “family friendly” restaurant choices out there already. Sure, they may not have the same cuisine or ambiance that some of the nicer restaurants do, but there are many choices for taking the little kids out to eat. I just don’t think nicer restaurants are the right place to take the little ones out to. Of course, there will ALWAYS be plenty of people who don’t care, and will do whatever they want to and drag their kids along for the ride. But that’s another story. ;-)
WOW! Obviously, this is a hot topic with all these comments. Mr. Brooks has a good idea, but the early family hour would have to be VERY early (maybe brunch) in order to clean up after all the families and set up for adults-only crowd. Currently, Mr. Brooks has an infant that could probably sleep through the meal, but keeping your eyes on one or more toddlers can certainly take the enjoyment out of eating fine food. I’m not anti kids, since I have two of my own (now adults), but fine dining with babies/toddlers may be too much to expect! Let’s see if he feels the same when his newborn is a 2-3 yr. old. This might be a better idea starting with older children, perhaps at least five years old on up.
One word: Babysitter.
I am a mother of very young kids and would never consider taking them to a nice restaurant, but I do understand wanting a day off from cooking and treating myself to a nice meal out. Childless 9 to 5ers are not the only ones who deserve “a respite from a crazed day at work.” Trust me – NOBODY works harder or deserves a break more than a mom or dad of small children (especially a stay-at-home parent.) Whether they choose to bring the kids with them is another story.
On the flip side of this issue, I remember reading about somebody that was trying to get local restaurants to have “child free” nights, where no small children were allowed in to more upscale restaurants. As a childless person, I really thought that was a great idea. It’s just too bad it never took off. Personally, if I’m in a an upscale restaurant for dinner and an infant or toddler is seated next to us, I will usually asked to be moved as far away as possible. It’s not fair to regular diners to expose them to crying/screaming babies or roaming toddlers when they are paying for a good meal and the ambiance of a good restaurant. Sure, you think your child is cute and deserves to be there, but try to think about the rest of us. Stick to Denny’s or Perkins with the little ones if you MUST take them out to eat. Those places are kid friendly, and that’s just one of the reasons I avoid them when I go out to eat. ;-)
I think Paul lives in Manhattan or even Spain. Early dinner seating here tends to be 6:00 for adults. I for one am childless, but was once a child and have VERY few recollections of eating in fine dining restaruants as kid-unless Shakey’s Pizza is considered fine dining. There is a ton of information in the world about older parents having justified bringing children into an adult environment because they have worked hard and “earned it”. There are several once-adult places I’ve startetd to avoid as I feel like I am in Romper room trying to eat or drink and am watching babies practice their first steps around my table and screaming kids being talked over by adults who are grateful to be out at all and feel like the poor server is now responsible for childcare and cleanup, AND as a former server may I mention the messes almost all families leave behind?? Cherios ground in and baby slime of unknown varieties stuck to unbelievably diverse surfaces. while we all are forced to dote over how charming your 6 year old who like foie gras is….Parents, having children is a sacrifice, I thought we all knew that. Some of us are unwilling to make those sacrifices and guess what…We skip the kids. Let the kids be kids their time there is short.
I’ll speak for all non-breeders and remind you that walking into an upscale restaurant and spotting a kid is disconcerting, and a buzz kill. At brunch last weekend, the server placed a highchair at the table next to us. My husband’s comment of “oh no” was spot on. We hurried up and finished what would otherwise have been a casual meal. And yes, the kid threw a tantrum, as well as toys, just inches from us. Call me a baby hater, but I pay good money NOT to have to see/hear children while I’m enjoying an amuse bouche and the rest of my meal. The experience, the atmosphere, the whole beautiful thing about dining out is for the special occasion of it. It’s a respite from a crazed day at work, it’s an expensive treat and an opportunity for adults to converse and savor and chat in muted tones. I appreciate the comments to Brooks’ post by waitstaff and patrons alike who shun the child dining experience – and I’ll stay clear of any restaurant that embraces it.
I have to say, what about all the annoying ADULTS? I’ve had quite a few of them ruin a fine dining experience. And movie theater outing. Can we have an “early” seating for all of them?
I just read through several of them on Serious Eats and have a couple of thoughts.
First, Scott is right. Most of the comments are from people who missed the point. The idea is to have an early dinner seating with kids. Get them out of the restaurant by 8:00 or 9:00 so the non-kid crowd can eat.
Something else: I have had the displeasure of eating at an upscale restaurants where the food was less than scale. It killed my experience. I would ask why you want to go to this restaurant. Is it to eat really outstanding food? If so, perhaps a babysitter would be in order. Eating a great meal can be a zen experience, perhaps not clouded by flying spaghetti. Or are you going for the ambiance? Because it’s a place to be seen? Or the decor? I would think about the experience of the dining before I plunk down a couple hundred bucks. And yes, I ask this even though it would be a 5:00 seating.
I love to eat, and I love that my children are great eaters. I actually see my daughter eating stuff on any menu in contrast with bringing Tupperware full of mush.
But, in reality, if I take the kids, I would want this to be an experience for them too, on some level.
It’s simple: is your child old enough to sit in a restaurant without disturbing others? If so great – expose them to wonderful food. If not, don’t take them to restaurants until they are, no matter what the time of day. There will be people at restaurants at ALL times who are paying to enjoy a lovely, quiet meal.
Everything changes when you have kids. And it’s not something you can ever explain to people that don’t have them – they have to experience it for themselves. I know so many people that have changed the way they think because they ended up having babies. I guarantee that all those SE readers who are opposed to this idea, will change their minds if they ever have children. This is a great idea for families looking to have a nice meal outside the home for a change, and for restaurants to stay in business in this fledgling economy.
With three small kids at home, we haven’t been out to eat in a long time. This idea would never fly in a larger metro area, but in a smaller town where people are more family oriented and embrace kids, I think it would go over really well. Of course, in most small towns, there doesn’t seem to be a lot of “fine dining” options, anyway.
Wow. So many baby-haters out there. While I do understand that fine dining is not meant for screaming, messy kids, Scott was right – everyone missed the point of the EARLY seating. The restaurant would be crowded with other parents and kids. How nice to eat a great meal around other people who “get it” and won’t be judging me. I’m in.
The point was that most couples who don’t have children don’t dine at such early hours, anyway. So why not give families who have babies or young kids a chance to eat out? They can enjoy a nice meal, be around other understanding parents, and the restaurant can make money, too? I think it’s a really good idea.
I used to fall into the “no way” camp, but then I had a baby. It changes your perspective on everything.
I didn’t read through all of the SE comments, but I scanned quite a few – seems like their readers missed the point. Zach was just posing a suggestions of how restaurants could bring in a little extra money in this hurting economy.
It’s no surprise that most parents will be in favor of this idea, where most singles or couples without kids will oppose it.
My husband and I don’t eat out much anymore, either. Mainly because it’s a hassle. But also because of the glares we get. I guess it’s just one of the sacrifices of having babies.
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